Credit to Joe Rogan for having Douglas Murray on his podcast, and how exhausting for Murray to have to explain the obvious to a pseudo intellectual well meaning well read numbskull like Dave Smith. No doubt frustrating to repeatedly have to explain why 2 + 2 = 4 to a person who argues otherwise for almost three hours. You could see how exhausted Murray was at the end, while the numbskull is energized by it. Getting into a braying contest with a jackass is never tiring for the jackass.
Hard to know where to begin, and not sure if you are asking a question seeking an answer or looking for an argument. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are asking a question. Starting with his last assertion, Smith inferred Jews were behind the Iraq invasion by pointing to influential Jews like Paul Wolfowitz and Perle, lackeys for higher ranking and far more influential gentiles, and furthering the notion they were responsible for the Iraq war and for various anti-Putin stances taken by America. Murray looked at Smith with the same incredulity I had, that is, Smith was furthering a position taken by Jew haters who find a couple of influential Jews among a host of more influential gentiles and asserting the Jews were in control. It is a tired trope for folk to find the 1 or 2 Jews among 10 or more gentiles, always with more clout and influence than the Jew, and assert the Jew was pulling the strings.
Having watched the episode, I did not think Smith named Wolfowitz as an anti-Semitic jab, rather he was naming the deputy defense secretary who General Wesley Clark credits the “7 wars in 5 years” plan.
Appreciate your comment Austin. No issues with General Wesley Clark, who supported Israel and never tried to hide the fact he had Jewish lineage, though I believe Clark was either a Baptist or Catholic. My understanding of General Clark was he was even more critical of Rumsfeld and Cheney, both of whom had far more power and influence than Wolfowitz. Murray's response to Smith when Smith mentioned Wolfowitz, and Perle, was to caution against furthering antisemitic tropes by inflating their importance in the world of NeoCons. Murray knew where such comments lead and what prejudices they fuel. Maybe you are correct and Smith didn't mean it as an anti-semitic jab, in which case he is truly a moron.
This is such a nonsensical argument. Wolfowitz was the guy that wrote a paper that ended up on a general’s desk as an actionable plan.
If he has to do a land acknowledgement before bringing that up, Murray shouldn’t have been fighting so hard against DEI micro-aggression policing. 🤷🏼♂️
Yup, you said it. Wolfowitz was a wonk who wrote papers for the folk above him with command authority, which they could ignore, modify, or follow. As for Murray and DEI micro-aggression policing, I've no idea what you are talking about.
I don't think I have ever seen a comment with the word Jews in it so much. Why was is hard to know where to begin? It is abundantly clear what you found so horrible about Dave Smith. You only needed one sentence. It was a 2 hour plus discussion 🤷♀️
"Hard to know where to begin, and not sure if you are asking a question seeking an answer or looking for an argument. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are asking a question. "
Was very pleased to have Douglas Murray set the record straight. I like Dave but lately I feel like he’s being a bit ‘loose’ about what is and isn’t. DM is always to be appreciated.
More like somebody who pretends to know a lot about a subject when in fact he knows very little, having done virtually no research. The single most relevant research one can do is to have actually seen first hand something he pretends to know a lot about
Tell me, what do you think Murray saw firsthand? Do you believe he knows more than Smith about the fundamental facts of the conflict because he went to Israel, spent a few hours at checkpoints under Israeli tutelage, and no real time with Palestinians—let alone in Gaza or the West Bank? Do you think he understands more than Smith about the basic facts of the war in Ukraine because he may have spent time in Kyiv but none in the Donbas, let alone Russia? And even if he did go to those places and gained more insight, how does that change the fundamental facts that inform a sense of what is right or moral?
How about this. It was a debate. Murray seemed well informed and reasonable. Smith seemed poorly informed and faking his way through it. You saw what you wanted because you had a preconceived notion about the subject. Me too. I get the feeling that if TSHTF I don't want people like Smith on my team
I'll take Smith. I had a completely different experience with the debate than you. I thought Murray sounded like a pompous jazz student with a gift for good tone and timing but nothing to say on his instrument—just a bunch of shallow, well-rehearsed clichés he picked up from his 'jazz school' instructor. He knows just enough to impress the novice ears who came to the recital hoping to see him do well.
BTW, Mr Koenig—who doesn’t have a preconceived notion about these subjects at this point? Only people who aren’t paying attention. But ask yourself a basic question: Are you rooting for one side of the conflict to conquer the other? I’m not. I know who’s more in the wrong—because the basic facts are tested by my principles and morals. No amount of narrative spin or gaslighting will ever override them.
Douglas Murray as always is Brilliant. Rogan has been guilty ( yes guilty) of putting speakers on that are clearly antisemitic and lacking in historical knowledge. Sadly a lot of his audience see this as a history lesson because schools today are too busy pushing pronouns and Hamas I stopped watching Rogan because of his lack of counter speakers regarding Oct. 7th until now. Douglas Murray is my hero.
I listened to the whole thing today. Almost turned it off because it occasionally became a shouting match like a cable news show, but I did listen to the whole thing.
Dave Murray made a lot of good points imo. It's amazing how many people forget how the war started, and why it has to be fought the way it's being fought.
If this was a contest to wipe the floor, then Douglas Murray won. Dave Smith wiped the floor with him.
Actually, Murray did more to damage himself than either Rogan or Smith ever could. He accuses Rogan of platforming more anti-Ukrainian views than pro-Ukrainian, but can't remember any of the guests. He claims he didn't listen to any of Darryl Cooper's podcasts, and he doesn't need to because he knows what his views are based on a very brief interview on Tucker Carlson's show. He chastises Dave Smith for believing what Putin said before the invasion of Ukraine, then claims that he knows Putin's secret motive based on . . . nothing.
Dave Smith didn't do much. Douglas Murray re-affirmed that he is a pompous windbag who hides behind his accent, uses many $10 words, and actually says very little of significance. He argued himself in circles by claiming that Rogan should platform more experts, then agreeing that the experts had all beclowned themselves by lying/being wrong about so much related to COVID, geopolitics, etc.
This was not a debate. It was a self-immolation. Douglas Murray, RIP.
I continue to be amused, or rather, as Dougie says - "I find it weird" that the art of arguing has been lost in common conversation. The inconsistencies flied galore - you mentioned several. The one that had me laughing was not to trust a confidential cable to the Secretary of State, because you know, I think differently.
Regarding Darryl - I've heard many hours of his work (I'm appealing to authority here) yet, I do not recall him ever referring himself to being a historian. I do believe he's very well read, in fact I would venture to say he has read more than Dougalas. Happens to be that Darryl will bring quotes from multiple sources including those that have a contrarian narrative. I personally like to be challenged in my thoughts, and not just persuaded by a british accent and mannerisms.
Exactly. Those who hold a negative opinion of Darryl Cooper have, almost universally, refused to listen to what he's put out, beyond a podcast on someone else's show. Douglas Murray should be ashamed of himself. 'I haven't listened to any of his content. I heard him on someone else's podcast, and that's enough for me to tell you he's wrong about everything.' Really pathetic.
If by "he," you mean "Douglas Murray," then "yes," he's wrong, and "yes," I think the Neocons are scumbags along with liberals. If by "he," you mean either Darryl Cooper or the previous commenter to whom I replied, then "no."
I am certain Neocons are scumbags; they never saw a war they didn’t love or serve in. They want us to continue in Ukraine and Start a new one in Iran for the great Neocon ally there.
I think the real dynamic that will impact us for decades is the upcoming war with Iran on behalf of Israel. Hundreds of thousands will die, trillions of USD will be wasted and the devastation will take decades to address. Israel’s threat to attack are a clear and present danger. A false flag will be run up the flag pole and then comes the media screaming for patriotic response, conscription, distraction, and another endless war. We were in Vietnam for over 10 years and Iran is an infinitely stronger opponent than Iran. Ditto Iraq and Afghanistan. People will smirk next year remembering the trivia of tariffs, deportations, illegal immigration. Current censorship of criticism of Israel will be begged for as the lockdown on any and all criticism of our ally will be treated as treason under new war-time censorship orders. Buckle up.
I sure hope not. I'm not a big Trump fan, except to say he's vastly better than the wretched alternative. Still, his 'Israel, right or wrong' approach is quite troubling.
Hey Steven, I’m not sure what the word “arsed” means here. If it means “upset”, then I think and hope that most of the world would be upset because an attack on Iran by Israel or US would tempt a very major loss of life by all engages.
I thought they both made good points. And I appreciated the discourse. A little heated at times... but they all tried to be respectful through their disagreements and to acknowledge when they agreed. I didn't agree fully with either of them at times, but I like to hear people's perspectives. I also think many things can be true at the same time, and that we CAN become clouded by our particular perspective.
I was a Murry fan for years before he became the favored intellectual of almost everyone who swoons every time he appears = i listened intently to the whole podcast and think Murray disgraced himself from the start with his complaint that neither joe nor dave were "experts" and thus should shut up and let his experts lead the way. It got worse and I saw Murray totally decompress as the three hours went by. as glenn g put it - and i agree after wtching him for years -- murray never goes anywhere where hs is not the expert and challenged - glenn has invited him on frequently but he never will come
- anyway -Murray disgraced himself for me a day or two after october 7when he appeared wearing a whole cable ready outfit with a huge PRESS sign aablaze across his speakling clean probably custom designed outfit - which i thought hilarious - he looked like an SNL opening act - he accused dave of not being able to speak of gaza/israel since he had never been there and he - murray had with proof of you tubes of him wearing his press badge. O course, he never mentioned that it was safe and secure Israel where he was - i never saw him in gaza carrying out a dead baby from the bombed hospital nor sounds of bombs falling. . For anyone sneering at the elites of the world, take a look at murray a card carrying member.
Without saying so, I think Murray realized Dave was more than he had prejudged. He didn’t say so, but his tone softened at the end, and he suddenly changed the topic to “smelling salts” , a benign topic or was this a Brit way of lightening things up as the show ended? ….. I had never heard of the guy, but quickly saw that from the start he thought he was there to let Rogan and Smith know what he thought of them and their ilk. He seems to be particularly irritated by Daryl Cooper, a real self read history nerd from my limited listening, with no evidence that he had read much or knows how Cooper has come to what he knows. Overall, Murray seemed more like the left, as Smith pointed out, and that only old, established knowledge can be trusted, and that is The Academy, and in particular the British Academy.
Dave is one of those individuals who is accidentally smart at times. What I mean by that is that he’s mostly just a libertarian ideologue, and that rigid non-thinking stance can often come across as deep thought when it aligns well with reality, such as seeing through the propoganda of “experts” and war hawks. This same ideology makes him an idiot on the topics that don’t align with his ideology, such as Isreal and tarifs. And no I don’t mean it’s wrong to criticise Isreal or that there are legit differing opinions on this, but anyone who thinks Isreal is a theocratic regime and that there is an actual genocide, not war, occcuring in Gaza is not living in reality.
So Dave can opine on certain things and seem brilliant, then turn around and say insane things in service to that same unthinking libertarian worldview and that’s the give away. He doesn’t change his beliefs in the face of non-conforming facts, he just changes the “facts”.
DM is one of the great western public intellectuals of our time, who travels the world as a real journalist, gathering facts on the ground before he speaks. Do not challenge him with your primitive skills.
Douglas Murray is not a very good liar. Dave is far more knowledgable on the facts than the Brit blowhard who masquerades as a journalist. Glad JR brought DM on to reveal himself to a very large American audience.
Are you familiar with the name Giora Eiland? He was a major in the Israeli army, so he had clearly been to Gaza several times and seen all the mansions and pools. In 2004 he called Gaza a concentration camp. Reminder that 2004 was 2 years *before* Israel “left” Gaza.
The first thing Zionists need to do is stop thinking other people are stupid. But you know you can’t hide after murdering thousands of children, their mothers, grandmothers, aunts, sisters - none of whom crossed the fence on Oct 7th. So you must gaslight…
Exactly right; they’re slaughtering and starving Palestinian women and children by the tens of thousands and denying it like one who would deny the Nazis didn’t do the same thing to Jews.
Right. In 2004 the government forced the Arabs to stay in their cities because of the Jewish settlements. The "evil Zionists" lol thought that was immoral so they evicted the Jews out of their homes and gave it back to the Arabs to create their own independently governed Territory. So yes, it is absolutely not a concentration camp.
While I certainly don't think "Zionists" or anyone should think their opponents stupid (that's part of the reason Oct 7th happened) but with your ridiculous arguments from 2004 it makes it hard for me not to do so.
There's a difference between being under siege largely as a consequence of your elected government's actions and being confined in a concentration camp.
They are bombing, killing, starving and making homeless hundreds of thousands of Palestinian women and children in an ethnic cleansing campaign. Plainly obvious.
I thought Murray made a good point when he asked Smith if he’d been to the region. Israel is always complicated and what happened on Oct 7th was horrific, but it does have the echos of 9/11.
That means we’ll probably find out more info as time goes by.
That does not invalidate the innocent people who were killed that day. They didn’t attack a military base where the HAMAS fighters could have fought the Israelis fighters. They attacked unarmed civilians, and I cannot support anyone who does that.
HAMAS and everything that’s come out always have the feeling of Marxist. I don’t know if they are ultimately communist, but the protest, the leaders and the way they do business feels a lot like Marxism to me.
Mr Benjamin Netanyahu, born on 21 October 1949, Prime Minister of Israel at the time of the relevant conduct.
Arrest warrant issued on 21 November 2024
Accused LastName
Netanyahu
Accused FirstName
Benjamin
Charges
Allegedly responsible for the war crimes of starvation as a method of warfare and of intentionally directing an attack against the civilian population; and the crimes against humanity of murder, persecution, and other inhumane acts from at least 8 October 2023 until at least 20 May 2024.”
This is a great example of good discussion and we should all be humble.
Murray(and Rogan and Dave) has gotten things very wrong in the past. We all have.
I think it is perfectly okay - in hindsight, and with Trump's examples of diplomacy today - to ask why all of our wars happened when they probably didn't need to. Especially when you have been to war.
Neocons have been around for decades and they never saw a war they didn’t want to have some poor Christian kids go shot and killed in. Just what the data says. Poor Christian kids die even beyond their ratio of the population. They hate us.
You put it well: it was Douglas having to take down both Dave and Joe. Rogan spends too much time hanging with comedians and doesn't know what to do with someone as serious as Douglas, so he defaults to a fellow comedian. I lost a lot of respect for Rogan over this one.
I was surprised they brought in commentary from Sam Harris who has 0 morals, much like Dave Smith, both so in love w their own dumb leftist ideas they don't even why understand those ideas might be wrong & laughable to see him project. Murray has authored some fairly good books & makes good arguments regarding the ignorant anti Israel stance.
dave smith reeks w of the 7 deadly sins attitudes, adopts the same elitist attitudes of leftists of never being wrong, portrays himself an expert/ elitist utopian visionary w his leftist (liberal/libertarian views, unregulated drugs, promiscuity, open borders, lopsided trade...) his pro hamas/anti Israel grand standing, is grotesque and a lie.
Having listened to a lot of Dave Smith’s podcasts, I have to disagree. Smith has repeatedly stated that cheating on your wife/spouse is wrong. I’m not aware if Smith has been accused of infidelity either. He’s also repeatedly argued against open borders and likewise condemned the border policies of the Biden administration.
An olive branch. I viewed some of Douglas Murray’s interview with Chris Williams and it’s clear that Murray is intelligent and can make strong arguments. Perhaps the Rogan interview was a bad day for him, or the two-on-one debate was not a reasonable competition.
After listening to over half it appears to me that the 'expert' Murray is just trying to shut his kids up for asking 'why'. I respect Murray, but the english accented 'experts' still don't come to grips with people with common sense at the street level. Murray does a pretty good job of it and this whole discussion is worth the time.
Credit to Joe Rogan for having Douglas Murray on his podcast, and how exhausting for Murray to have to explain the obvious to a pseudo intellectual well meaning well read numbskull like Dave Smith. No doubt frustrating to repeatedly have to explain why 2 + 2 = 4 to a person who argues otherwise for almost three hours. You could see how exhausted Murray was at the end, while the numbskull is energized by it. Getting into a braying contest with a jackass is never tiring for the jackass.
What did Dave Smith get wrong?
Hard to know where to begin, and not sure if you are asking a question seeking an answer or looking for an argument. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are asking a question. Starting with his last assertion, Smith inferred Jews were behind the Iraq invasion by pointing to influential Jews like Paul Wolfowitz and Perle, lackeys for higher ranking and far more influential gentiles, and furthering the notion they were responsible for the Iraq war and for various anti-Putin stances taken by America. Murray looked at Smith with the same incredulity I had, that is, Smith was furthering a position taken by Jew haters who find a couple of influential Jews among a host of more influential gentiles and asserting the Jews were in control. It is a tired trope for folk to find the 1 or 2 Jews among 10 or more gentiles, always with more clout and influence than the Jew, and assert the Jew was pulling the strings.
Having watched the episode, I did not think Smith named Wolfowitz as an anti-Semitic jab, rather he was naming the deputy defense secretary who General Wesley Clark credits the “7 wars in 5 years” plan.
Appreciate your comment Austin. No issues with General Wesley Clark, who supported Israel and never tried to hide the fact he had Jewish lineage, though I believe Clark was either a Baptist or Catholic. My understanding of General Clark was he was even more critical of Rumsfeld and Cheney, both of whom had far more power and influence than Wolfowitz. Murray's response to Smith when Smith mentioned Wolfowitz, and Perle, was to caution against furthering antisemitic tropes by inflating their importance in the world of NeoCons. Murray knew where such comments lead and what prejudices they fuel. Maybe you are correct and Smith didn't mean it as an anti-semitic jab, in which case he is truly a moron.
This is such a nonsensical argument. Wolfowitz was the guy that wrote a paper that ended up on a general’s desk as an actionable plan.
If he has to do a land acknowledgement before bringing that up, Murray shouldn’t have been fighting so hard against DEI micro-aggression policing. 🤷🏼♂️
Yup, you said it. Wolfowitz was a wonk who wrote papers for the folk above him with command authority, which they could ignore, modify, or follow. As for Murray and DEI micro-aggression policing, I've no idea what you are talking about.
Exactly this! It was Murray who tried to paint that picture.
I don't think I have ever seen a comment with the word Jews in it so much. Why was is hard to know where to begin? It is abundantly clear what you found so horrible about Dave Smith. You only needed one sentence. It was a 2 hour plus discussion 🤷♀️
Close to 3 hours. One sentence?
"Hard to know where to begin, and not sure if you are asking a question seeking an answer or looking for an argument. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are asking a question. "
Poisoning the well.
He drew a different conclusion than the guy who wrote “Neo-Conservatism: why we need it”
Was very pleased to have Douglas Murray set the record straight. I like Dave but lately I feel like he’s being a bit ‘loose’ about what is and isn’t. DM is always to be appreciated.
Dave Smith is a pseudo-intellectual. Murray is actually smart
What is a pseudo-intellectual? Is that anything like someone who does his own research?
More like somebody who pretends to know a lot about a subject when in fact he knows very little, having done virtually no research. The single most relevant research one can do is to have actually seen first hand something he pretends to know a lot about
Tell me, what do you think Murray saw firsthand? Do you believe he knows more than Smith about the fundamental facts of the conflict because he went to Israel, spent a few hours at checkpoints under Israeli tutelage, and no real time with Palestinians—let alone in Gaza or the West Bank? Do you think he understands more than Smith about the basic facts of the war in Ukraine because he may have spent time in Kyiv but none in the Donbas, let alone Russia? And even if he did go to those places and gained more insight, how does that change the fundamental facts that inform a sense of what is right or moral?
How about this. It was a debate. Murray seemed well informed and reasonable. Smith seemed poorly informed and faking his way through it. You saw what you wanted because you had a preconceived notion about the subject. Me too. I get the feeling that if TSHTF I don't want people like Smith on my team
I'll take Smith. I had a completely different experience with the debate than you. I thought Murray sounded like a pompous jazz student with a gift for good tone and timing but nothing to say on his instrument—just a bunch of shallow, well-rehearsed clichés he picked up from his 'jazz school' instructor. He knows just enough to impress the novice ears who came to the recital hoping to see him do well.
BTW, Mr Koenig—who doesn’t have a preconceived notion about these subjects at this point? Only people who aren’t paying attention. But ask yourself a basic question: Are you rooting for one side of the conflict to conquer the other? I’m not. I know who’s more in the wrong—because the basic facts are tested by my principles and morals. No amount of narrative spin or gaslighting will ever override them.
I viewed the debate and have the opposite opinion of Douglas Murray’s performance.
Fair enough
"I liked him more" ? What sort of reason to choose an argument is that?
Douglas Murray as always is Brilliant. Rogan has been guilty ( yes guilty) of putting speakers on that are clearly antisemitic and lacking in historical knowledge. Sadly a lot of his audience see this as a history lesson because schools today are too busy pushing pronouns and Hamas I stopped watching Rogan because of his lack of counter speakers regarding Oct. 7th until now. Douglas Murray is my hero.
I listened to the whole thing today. Almost turned it off because it occasionally became a shouting match like a cable news show, but I did listen to the whole thing.
Dave Murray made a lot of good points imo. It's amazing how many people forget how the war started, and why it has to be fought the way it's being fought.
If this was a contest to wipe the floor, then Douglas Murray won. Dave Smith wiped the floor with him.
Actually, Murray did more to damage himself than either Rogan or Smith ever could. He accuses Rogan of platforming more anti-Ukrainian views than pro-Ukrainian, but can't remember any of the guests. He claims he didn't listen to any of Darryl Cooper's podcasts, and he doesn't need to because he knows what his views are based on a very brief interview on Tucker Carlson's show. He chastises Dave Smith for believing what Putin said before the invasion of Ukraine, then claims that he knows Putin's secret motive based on . . . nothing.
Dave Smith didn't do much. Douglas Murray re-affirmed that he is a pompous windbag who hides behind his accent, uses many $10 words, and actually says very little of significance. He argued himself in circles by claiming that Rogan should platform more experts, then agreeing that the experts had all beclowned themselves by lying/being wrong about so much related to COVID, geopolitics, etc.
This was not a debate. It was a self-immolation. Douglas Murray, RIP.
I saw the fight and gave it the same score.
I continue to be amused, or rather, as Dougie says - "I find it weird" that the art of arguing has been lost in common conversation. The inconsistencies flied galore - you mentioned several. The one that had me laughing was not to trust a confidential cable to the Secretary of State, because you know, I think differently.
Regarding Darryl - I've heard many hours of his work (I'm appealing to authority here) yet, I do not recall him ever referring himself to being a historian. I do believe he's very well read, in fact I would venture to say he has read more than Dougalas. Happens to be that Darryl will bring quotes from multiple sources including those that have a contrarian narrative. I personally like to be challenged in my thoughts, and not just persuaded by a british accent and mannerisms.
Exactly. Those who hold a negative opinion of Darryl Cooper have, almost universally, refused to listen to what he's put out, beyond a podcast on someone else's show. Douglas Murray should be ashamed of himself. 'I haven't listened to any of his content. I heard him on someone else's podcast, and that's enough for me to tell you he's wrong about everything.' Really pathetic.
Is he wrong, or you think Neocons are scumbags along with liberals?
If by "he," you mean "Douglas Murray," then "yes," he's wrong, and "yes," I think the Neocons are scumbags along with liberals. If by "he," you mean either Darryl Cooper or the previous commenter to whom I replied, then "no."
I am certain Neocons are scumbags; they never saw a war they didn’t love or serve in. They want us to continue in Ukraine and Start a new one in Iran for the great Neocon ally there.
I think the real dynamic that will impact us for decades is the upcoming war with Iran on behalf of Israel. Hundreds of thousands will die, trillions of USD will be wasted and the devastation will take decades to address. Israel’s threat to attack are a clear and present danger. A false flag will be run up the flag pole and then comes the media screaming for patriotic response, conscription, distraction, and another endless war. We were in Vietnam for over 10 years and Iran is an infinitely stronger opponent than Iran. Ditto Iraq and Afghanistan. People will smirk next year remembering the trivia of tariffs, deportations, illegal immigration. Current censorship of criticism of Israel will be begged for as the lockdown on any and all criticism of our ally will be treated as treason under new war-time censorship orders. Buckle up.
I sure hope not. I'm not a big Trump fan, except to say he's vastly better than the wretched alternative. Still, his 'Israel, right or wrong' approach is quite troubling.
That said, this is the first positive sign I've seen vis-a-vis Iran so far. https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/trump-envoy-first-direct-constructive-contact-iran-after-laying-down-red-line
I'm hoping for more steps down that pathway than down a war trajectory.
The problem is Israel is going to attack Iran regardless of Trump’s preference.
Hey Steven, I’m not sure what the word “arsed” means here. If it means “upset”, then I think and hope that most of the world would be upset because an attack on Iran by Israel or US would tempt a very major loss of life by all engages.
I thought they both made good points. And I appreciated the discourse. A little heated at times... but they all tried to be respectful through their disagreements and to acknowledge when they agreed. I didn't agree fully with either of them at times, but I like to hear people's perspectives. I also think many things can be true at the same time, and that we CAN become clouded by our particular perspective.
Dave Smith is only in his element when he is surrounded by loonies.
Try a real criticism rather than gratuitous BS
I was a Murry fan for years before he became the favored intellectual of almost everyone who swoons every time he appears = i listened intently to the whole podcast and think Murray disgraced himself from the start with his complaint that neither joe nor dave were "experts" and thus should shut up and let his experts lead the way. It got worse and I saw Murray totally decompress as the three hours went by. as glenn g put it - and i agree after wtching him for years -- murray never goes anywhere where hs is not the expert and challenged - glenn has invited him on frequently but he never will come
- anyway -Murray disgraced himself for me a day or two after october 7when he appeared wearing a whole cable ready outfit with a huge PRESS sign aablaze across his speakling clean probably custom designed outfit - which i thought hilarious - he looked like an SNL opening act - he accused dave of not being able to speak of gaza/israel since he had never been there and he - murray had with proof of you tubes of him wearing his press badge. O course, he never mentioned that it was safe and secure Israel where he was - i never saw him in gaza carrying out a dead baby from the bombed hospital nor sounds of bombs falling. . For anyone sneering at the elites of the world, take a look at murray a card carrying member.
Without saying so, I think Murray realized Dave was more than he had prejudged. He didn’t say so, but his tone softened at the end, and he suddenly changed the topic to “smelling salts” , a benign topic or was this a Brit way of lightening things up as the show ended? ….. I had never heard of the guy, but quickly saw that from the start he thought he was there to let Rogan and Smith know what he thought of them and their ilk. He seems to be particularly irritated by Daryl Cooper, a real self read history nerd from my limited listening, with no evidence that he had read much or knows how Cooper has come to what he knows. Overall, Murray seemed more like the left, as Smith pointed out, and that only old, established knowledge can be trusted, and that is The Academy, and in particular the British Academy.
Dave is one of those individuals who is accidentally smart at times. What I mean by that is that he’s mostly just a libertarian ideologue, and that rigid non-thinking stance can often come across as deep thought when it aligns well with reality, such as seeing through the propoganda of “experts” and war hawks. This same ideology makes him an idiot on the topics that don’t align with his ideology, such as Isreal and tarifs. And no I don’t mean it’s wrong to criticise Isreal or that there are legit differing opinions on this, but anyone who thinks Isreal is a theocratic regime and that there is an actual genocide, not war, occcuring in Gaza is not living in reality.
So Dave can opine on certain things and seem brilliant, then turn around and say insane things in service to that same unthinking libertarian worldview and that’s the give away. He doesn’t change his beliefs in the face of non-conforming facts, he just changes the “facts”.
DM is one of the great western public intellectuals of our time, who travels the world as a real journalist, gathering facts on the ground before he speaks. Do not challenge him with your primitive skills.
This is a joke right?
Douglas Murray is not a very good liar. Dave is far more knowledgable on the facts than the Brit blowhard who masquerades as a journalist. Glad JR brought DM on to reveal himself to a very large American audience.
The guy who thought Gaza was a concentration camp without ever going there or even without googling the luxury pools, zoos, and mansions there?
Are you familiar with the name Giora Eiland? He was a major in the Israeli army, so he had clearly been to Gaza several times and seen all the mansions and pools. In 2004 he called Gaza a concentration camp. Reminder that 2004 was 2 years *before* Israel “left” Gaza.
The first thing Zionists need to do is stop thinking other people are stupid. But you know you can’t hide after murdering thousands of children, their mothers, grandmothers, aunts, sisters - none of whom crossed the fence on Oct 7th. So you must gaslight…
Exactly right; they’re slaughtering and starving Palestinian women and children by the tens of thousands and denying it like one who would deny the Nazis didn’t do the same thing to Jews.
Right. In 2004 the government forced the Arabs to stay in their cities because of the Jewish settlements. The "evil Zionists" lol thought that was immoral so they evicted the Jews out of their homes and gave it back to the Arabs to create their own independently governed Territory. So yes, it is absolutely not a concentration camp.
While I certainly don't think "Zionists" or anyone should think their opponents stupid (that's part of the reason Oct 7th happened) but with your ridiculous arguments from 2004 it makes it hard for me not to do so.
🤣 The “Arabs” are Palestinians, and you won’t change that no matter how hard you try to erase them.
https://substack.com/@lmsny/note/c-107457638?
Lol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre?wprov=sfla1.
You'll notice that this happened before the "Zionist" state was created.
So by your logic, there was no Holocaust before the Nazis opened Auschwitz…correct?
And can you kindly make up your mind…is it not a “Zionist” state?
So, you think amenities make it something other than a captive people?
It makes it not a concentration camp.
There's a difference between being under siege largely as a consequence of your elected government's actions and being confined in a concentration camp.
They are bombing, killing, starving and making homeless hundreds of thousands of Palestinian women and children in an ethnic cleansing campaign. Plainly obvious.
If it were "plainly obvious" there wouldn't be a debate.
BS. Lots of things that were plainly obvious to most have been debated. Not at all mutually exclusive.
Yeah lots of talking points that have since been debunked as well, funny you guys never have anything to say about that stuff.
I thought Murray made a good point when he asked Smith if he’d been to the region. Israel is always complicated and what happened on Oct 7th was horrific, but it does have the echos of 9/11.
That means we’ll probably find out more info as time goes by.
That does not invalidate the innocent people who were killed that day. They didn’t attack a military base where the HAMAS fighters could have fought the Israelis fighters. They attacked unarmed civilians, and I cannot support anyone who does that.
HAMAS and everything that’s come out always have the feeling of Marxist. I don’t know if they are ultimately communist, but the protest, the leaders and the way they do business feels a lot like Marxism to me.
Starvation and crimes against humanity
“
Netanyahu
About Defendant
Mr Benjamin Netanyahu, born on 21 October 1949, Prime Minister of Israel at the time of the relevant conduct.
Arrest warrant issued on 21 November 2024
Accused LastName
Netanyahu
Accused FirstName
Benjamin
Charges
Allegedly responsible for the war crimes of starvation as a method of warfare and of intentionally directing an attack against the civilian population; and the crimes against humanity of murder, persecution, and other inhumane acts from at least 8 October 2023 until at least 20 May 2024.”
https://www.icc-cpi.int/defendant/netanyahu
This is a great example of good discussion and we should all be humble.
Murray(and Rogan and Dave) has gotten things very wrong in the past. We all have.
I think it is perfectly okay - in hindsight, and with Trump's examples of diplomacy today - to ask why all of our wars happened when they probably didn't need to. Especially when you have been to war.
Neocons have been around for decades and they never saw a war they didn’t want to have some poor Christian kids go shot and killed in. Just what the data says. Poor Christian kids die even beyond their ratio of the population. They hate us.
Dave Smith desperately seeking attention. He's also an elitist which is revolting. This is excellent recap of ~
Douglas Murray's spectacular takedown of Joe Rogan and Dave Smith over Hamas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2Vwb_hwZvE&ab_channel=SkyNewsAustralia
You put it well: it was Douglas having to take down both Dave and Joe. Rogan spends too much time hanging with comedians and doesn't know what to do with someone as serious as Douglas, so he defaults to a fellow comedian. I lost a lot of respect for Rogan over this one.
I was surprised they brought in commentary from Sam Harris who has 0 morals, much like Dave Smith, both so in love w their own dumb leftist ideas they don't even why understand those ideas might be wrong & laughable to see him project. Murray has authored some fairly good books & makes good arguments regarding the ignorant anti Israel stance.
Dave Smith is the elitist? How so?
dave smith reeks w of the 7 deadly sins attitudes, adopts the same elitist attitudes of leftists of never being wrong, portrays himself an expert/ elitist utopian visionary w his leftist (liberal/libertarian views, unregulated drugs, promiscuity, open borders, lopsided trade...) his pro hamas/anti Israel grand standing, is grotesque and a lie.
Having listened to a lot of Dave Smith’s podcasts, I have to disagree. Smith has repeatedly stated that cheating on your wife/spouse is wrong. I’m not aware if Smith has been accused of infidelity either. He’s also repeatedly argued against open borders and likewise condemned the border policies of the Biden administration.
An olive branch. I viewed some of Douglas Murray’s interview with Chris Williams and it’s clear that Murray is intelligent and can make strong arguments. Perhaps the Rogan interview was a bad day for him, or the two-on-one debate was not a reasonable competition.
Clearly Heidi has never listened to Dave on any consistent, or I’d wager, inconsistent basis.
After listening to over half it appears to me that the 'expert' Murray is just trying to shut his kids up for asking 'why'. I respect Murray, but the english accented 'experts' still don't come to grips with people with common sense at the street level. Murray does a pretty good job of it and this whole discussion is worth the time.