Certainly. A crime is a crime. I have been unalterably against the concept of "hate crimes" from the first moment I saw it. With both "hate crimes" and "hate speech", a very basic question is this: who gets to define what "hate" is? Only the powerful could have the power, and only the authorities (which once upon a time we did not have) could have the authority. Either way (or both), they will act in accordance with their own self-interest.
There is no such thing as a "hate" crime. More leftists' attempt to shape and usurp the language. I think burning the flag should be legal, but have consequences. I would say revocation of their citizenship and deportation to a location of their choice outside of the U.S. would be a fair consequence.
I think that may be the ultimate reason they are doing this. People have been prosecuted for burning BLM or pride flags or desecrating a pride sidewalk under the accusation it was a “hate crime.” Well so is burning an American flag! They found ways to punish you for your free speech against them, so fair is fair: now they will find ways to punish you for burning the American flag - it is just desserts. You’re showing hate for something or you wouldn’t be burning it. So, you can’t have it both ways. If you want the freedom to burn the American flag then we get the freedom to burn the flags you have allegiance to as well. The EO pretty much brings this hypocrisy to the forefront.
Eric Garner had a heart attack after the NYPD was told to prioritize the illegal selling of cigarettes for prosecution, and the Left dutifully refused to condemn that policy, instead ludicrously playing the BLM card.
Punitive direction of law enforcement focus is not new, and as usual, the Left is throwing stones from glass houses.
Burning the flag on private property with consent of the property owners (flag and property) is fine, not a First Amendment issue in my view. But burning a flag that you own on public property or on somebody's else's property should not be accorded more protection than setting fires not otherwise allowed. For example, suppose I decide to burn a bunch of boxes on a public street or public park but not at a grill devoted to contain fires. That is arson of some sort and I'm sure unlawful. So if one decides to burn a flag where burning anything else at the same location would be considered unlawful, it shouldn't be accorded extra protection based on some juiced up First Amendment claim.
A solid indicator of whether or not someone has honor is if they are willing to call out their own tribe when that tribe or its leader goes too far. As a free speech absolutist, it bothers me that they are going down this road. Well, said, Sasha.
It’s easy to say stuff like this and the next thing you know ,free speech becomes lack of speech . It’s my choice to not sing the pledge in school, then the next thing you know, we have hoodlums everywhere . Nobody proud of this country. All spoiled brats that do as they please and say as they please all under the guise of “free speech”.
The responsibility for teaching love of country starts at home and SHOULD be a part of public school instruction. The rot goes very deep here. Jailing someone for burning a flag are not going to cure it.
Are either a cornerstone that the country was built on? There are some blocks our country has that are so strong they are used to hold up all other blocks . You don’t mess with those . I have no problem burning the book of Islam.
I'm OK with either or both. At the same time, even. Once upon a time we actually believed in "I may hate what you say but i will defend to the death your right to say it." We have lost something crucial.
I have seen that flag drape the coffins of family and friends my entire life (WW2 vets in my family and friends KIA during the GWOT).
It hurts me to say but I do believe even jerks have 1st amendment rights to defile the flag as political speech.
The big issue here is against using ‘hate speech laws’ to send people to jail for burning or defacing left wing political symbols, while freely burning our country’s flag.
Until the SCOTUS rules against the concept of hate speech laws, jailing or penalizing those that burn the flag is fair game. I am finished supporting the free speech of those that would use our very freedoms for their subversion of our republic.
Reluctantly...I agree. But others have it right, too..."free speech is free speech" and if burning the American flag is OK, then burning a rainbow flag, Jewish flag, or any other "symbol" should not be punished. IMHO
We live a life full of contradictions . There is nothing wrong with teaching your kids how to live through these types of scenarios . I agree with Lucas on this one.
Contradictions in 'life' is an absolute false equivalence in this case. Making an act that does NOT infringe on any Rights illegal IS an infringement on Rights. Get it straight, mfers...
I cannot lie , I was in fact being silly. The point is still the same . I before e… well not always . It’s ok to believe in something with exceptions . For me the flag represents a building block for this amazing experiment and blocks that are used to prop up other blocks should not be fiddled with.
Well if we want to give these hate crime charges to people who burn BLM or LGBT or any other flag ,ie a flag of Mexico or Israel. Saying it is your free speech right as a US citizen then it stands to reason if you are not a US citizen you could be charged with a hate crime to burn the US flag.
I may not remember this correctly, but I could swear I recall someone being charged with a crime for burning or defiling a BLM flag in 2020. Where I live, in 2023 two or three adult teens were charged with hate crime felonies for leaving tire marks with Lime scooters on a pride rainbow painted at a busy intersection. Seems like selective First Amendment protections apply to the Woke...............
Great point, people who are not US citizens and/or are here illegally have very limited protections under our Constitution when compared to the protections afforded to US citizens.
I agree with you Sasha. I would never burn the flag. I don't agree with people who burn the flag but I do not believe it should become a criminal act. It should be covered under the 1st amendment.
I agree with you. As with many things related to the President’s EOs, there is smoke but not a lot of fire. Here is the main part of the EO: “Sec. 2. Measures to Combat Desecration of the American Flag. (a) The Attorney General shall prioritize the enforcement to the fullest extent possible of our Nation’s criminal and civil laws against acts of American Flag desecration that violate applicable, content-neutral laws, while causing harm unrelated to expression, consistent with the First Amendment. This may include, but is not limited to, violent crimes; hate crimes, illegal discrimination against American citizens, or other violations of Americans’ civil rights; and crimes against property and the peace, as well as conspiracies and attempts to violate, and aiding and abetting others to violate, such laws.”
In other words : the AG can't do a thing. It's high time to press the issue & "violate someone's 1st amendment rights", let the lawyers loose, and start the process that will end ( only if they're willing to hear the case ) when the SCOTUS makes a final ruling.
While I disagree with those who burn the American flag, primarily because of the men and women who have died to preserve it, I agree that it is our first amendment right to protest in that way. However, I also believe the same should apply to other flags. Burning a flag is not the same as physically attacking a person or an item of property. We should not be turning cultural disagreements into hate crimes. I also think this is like some of the other Trump actions such as, the whole Gulf of America thing. It is unnecessary, creates division for no good reason, and in reality there are likely many conservatives who also think burning the flag should not be illegal and who think renaming the Gulf of Mexico was dumb.
And there are those who think burning the flag should not be illegal but renaming the Gulf of America made perfect sense and has nothing to do with “legalities”. We also think we should have the right to desecrate BLM or Pride flags and crosswalks. All of it should be equally applied across the board. If you can burn the American Flag (that represents my beliefs that I hold dear) without repercussions then I have every freedom to burn your pride and BLM flags and banners and walkways without repercussions. Fair is fair.
Don't forget about ownership. If it's your flag, burn it if you want to, regardless of what kind of flag. If it's someone else's flag, you have no right.
If we can burn one object as an expression of "speech", we should be able to burn them all, including the Koran and the BLM flag. Sasha, it's pretty obvious that among a great many other things, Trumpism means no more double standards that penalize the Right and cater to the Left.
agreed. but I also think we should have the right to burn BLM flags etc. free speech is free speech.
The entire concept of hate crimes is wrong. Actions are to be punished. Not thoughts
Certainly. A crime is a crime. I have been unalterably against the concept of "hate crimes" from the first moment I saw it. With both "hate crimes" and "hate speech", a very basic question is this: who gets to define what "hate" is? Only the powerful could have the power, and only the authorities (which once upon a time we did not have) could have the authority. Either way (or both), they will act in accordance with their own self-interest.
The American Flag 🇺🇲represents the United States of America, not the people temporarily serving in it's Government.
Openly burning the Country's Flag is showing HATE for America.
If you hate The United States of America enough to burn it's flag in disdain, you are a treasonous traitor.
The American flag represents "the republic for which it stands," not a country or a people.
You were spot on until the last sentence.
Treason- "The betrayal of allegiance toward one's own country".
Well, they certainly aren't pledging allegiance if they're burning up the flag.
What would you call it?
The men who wrote the Constitution defined treason In it so ignorant people like yourself wouldn't misunderstand what it is.
I would call it freedom of speech like the SCOTUS has, several times.
There is only one sentence in my post.
If hate were a crime, would that mean that all the hateful politicians would go to jail for life?
A crime is whatever legislators pass a law making a crime.
I agree with D. White. There is no such thing as a “hate crime”. Crime is…crime.
Absolutely correct. It seems to me that "crimes" based on your thoughts are Orwellian. 1984 all over again !
There is no such thing as a "hate" crime. More leftists' attempt to shape and usurp the language. I think burning the flag should be legal, but have consequences. I would say revocation of their citizenship and deportation to a location of their choice outside of the U.S. would be a fair consequence.
That sounds about right to me.
I think that may be the ultimate reason they are doing this. People have been prosecuted for burning BLM or pride flags or desecrating a pride sidewalk under the accusation it was a “hate crime.” Well so is burning an American flag! They found ways to punish you for your free speech against them, so fair is fair: now they will find ways to punish you for burning the American flag - it is just desserts. You’re showing hate for something or you wouldn’t be burning it. So, you can’t have it both ways. If you want the freedom to burn the American flag then we get the freedom to burn the flags you have allegiance to as well. The EO pretty much brings this hypocrisy to the forefront.
Seems to me that the precedent has already been set. Game on!
Agreed.
Nailed it!
And pride flags. And the Israeli flag.
As Raskolnikov said, "Everything is permitted."
Burn Ohio State and "Roll Tide" flags.
Hate crimes for all occasions.
Eric Garner had a heart attack after the NYPD was told to prioritize the illegal selling of cigarettes for prosecution, and the Left dutifully refused to condemn that policy, instead ludicrously playing the BLM card.
Punitive direction of law enforcement focus is not new, and as usual, the Left is throwing stones from glass houses.
Burning the flag on private property with consent of the property owners (flag and property) is fine, not a First Amendment issue in my view. But burning a flag that you own on public property or on somebody's else's property should not be accorded more protection than setting fires not otherwise allowed. For example, suppose I decide to burn a bunch of boxes on a public street or public park but not at a grill devoted to contain fires. That is arson of some sort and I'm sure unlawful. So if one decides to burn a flag where burning anything else at the same location would be considered unlawful, it shouldn't be accorded extra protection based on some juiced up First Amendment claim.
Public safety laws can prohibit burning of materials, if that prohibition is not based on dislike for political reasons.
So, I suppose that's why it's OK to set police cars on fire ?
A solid indicator of whether or not someone has honor is if they are willing to call out their own tribe when that tribe or its leader goes too far. As a free speech absolutist, it bothers me that they are going down this road. Well, said, Sasha.
It’s easy to say stuff like this and the next thing you know ,free speech becomes lack of speech . It’s my choice to not sing the pledge in school, then the next thing you know, we have hoodlums everywhere . Nobody proud of this country. All spoiled brats that do as they please and say as they please all under the guise of “free speech”.
The responsibility for teaching love of country starts at home and SHOULD be a part of public school instruction. The rot goes very deep here. Jailing someone for burning a flag are not going to cure it.
How are you with burning the Koran as an act of dissent against Islam? Or burning the BLM flag as dissent against racialist grift?
Are either a cornerstone that the country was built on? There are some blocks our country has that are so strong they are used to hold up all other blocks . You don’t mess with those . I have no problem burning the book of Islam.
I'm OK with either or both. At the same time, even. Once upon a time we actually believed in "I may hate what you say but i will defend to the death your right to say it." We have lost something crucial.
I have seen that flag drape the coffins of family and friends my entire life (WW2 vets in my family and friends KIA during the GWOT).
It hurts me to say but I do believe even jerks have 1st amendment rights to defile the flag as political speech.
The big issue here is against using ‘hate speech laws’ to send people to jail for burning or defacing left wing political symbols, while freely burning our country’s flag.
Until the SCOTUS rules against the concept of hate speech laws, jailing or penalizing those that burn the flag is fair game. I am finished supporting the free speech of those that would use our very freedoms for their subversion of our republic.
Reluctantly...I agree. But others have it right, too..."free speech is free speech" and if burning the American flag is OK, then burning a rainbow flag, Jewish flag, or any other "symbol" should not be punished. IMHO
Free speech, what a joke! The hallowed "N-word" is forbidden, yet burning an American flag is no big deal?
Good point. "Free" speech is pretty selective, isn't it?
Can you burn an American flag without hating the idea of America itself?
I don’t think so. So yes, it should be banned.
Burn all other flags, burn all religious texts.
But the American Flag is what gives you the freedom to burn those, that one should not be touched, ever.
I don’t care if you think it’s hypocritical, that hypocrisy is what keeps America alive as it is.
You MUST see the contradiction in your argument here. Right? RIGHT?
We live a life full of contradictions . There is nothing wrong with teaching your kids how to live through these types of scenarios . I agree with Lucas on this one.
Contradictions in 'life' is an absolute false equivalence in this case. Making an act that does NOT infringe on any Rights illegal IS an infringement on Rights. Get it straight, mfers...
Contradicting me telling me I’m contradictious only proves my contradicting point mffer
Ur just being silly now, Pat.
Run along....
I cannot lie , I was in fact being silly. The point is still the same . I before e… well not always . It’s ok to believe in something with exceptions . For me the flag represents a building block for this amazing experiment and blocks that are used to prop up other blocks should not be fiddled with.
Right. It’s called Patriotism.
Nope
Very well
Well if we want to give these hate crime charges to people who burn BLM or LGBT or any other flag ,ie a flag of Mexico or Israel. Saying it is your free speech right as a US citizen then it stands to reason if you are not a US citizen you could be charged with a hate crime to burn the US flag.
Hmm, you touch on an interesting question: What would happen if someone burned a Mexican flag at an anti-Ice rally?
I may not remember this correctly, but I could swear I recall someone being charged with a crime for burning or defiling a BLM flag in 2020. Where I live, in 2023 two or three adult teens were charged with hate crime felonies for leaving tire marks with Lime scooters on a pride rainbow painted at a busy intersection. Seems like selective First Amendment protections apply to the Woke...............
You recall correctly, however, in the BLM flag case, that was a flag that was put out on church property by the pastor. So, it was private property.
The incident with the kids and pride rainbow painted on a public road was ridiculous.
You’d probably be attacked by the crazies at the soreass funded anti ice rallies.
No doubt. Would I be arrested and charged for inciting riot?
Not if it was a “mostly peaceful” riot.
Great point, people who are not US citizens and/or are here illegally have very limited protections under our Constitution when compared to the protections afforded to US citizens.
Tell THAT to a "progressive".
I’d be happy to increase their understanding and knowledge of our Constitution
Using Rule 5.56 or Rule 7.62?
Rule of law.
I agree with you Sasha. I would never burn the flag. I don't agree with people who burn the flag but I do not believe it should become a criminal act. It should be covered under the 1st amendment.
Nonsense.....
Why?
Agree with you, but the double standard with the BLM flag therefore needs to end.
I agree with you. As with many things related to the President’s EOs, there is smoke but not a lot of fire. Here is the main part of the EO: “Sec. 2. Measures to Combat Desecration of the American Flag. (a) The Attorney General shall prioritize the enforcement to the fullest extent possible of our Nation’s criminal and civil laws against acts of American Flag desecration that violate applicable, content-neutral laws, while causing harm unrelated to expression, consistent with the First Amendment. This may include, but is not limited to, violent crimes; hate crimes, illegal discrimination against American citizens, or other violations of Americans’ civil rights; and crimes against property and the peace, as well as conspiracies and attempts to violate, and aiding and abetting others to violate, such laws.”
Thank you! It's always good to read the actual words of a law or of an EO. Too many never bother and believe something that simply doesn't exist.
In other words : the AG can't do a thing. It's high time to press the issue & "violate someone's 1st amendment rights", let the lawyers loose, and start the process that will end ( only if they're willing to hear the case ) when the SCOTUS makes a final ruling.
While I disagree with those who burn the American flag, primarily because of the men and women who have died to preserve it, I agree that it is our first amendment right to protest in that way. However, I also believe the same should apply to other flags. Burning a flag is not the same as physically attacking a person or an item of property. We should not be turning cultural disagreements into hate crimes. I also think this is like some of the other Trump actions such as, the whole Gulf of America thing. It is unnecessary, creates division for no good reason, and in reality there are likely many conservatives who also think burning the flag should not be illegal and who think renaming the Gulf of Mexico was dumb.
And there are those who think burning the flag should not be illegal but renaming the Gulf of America made perfect sense and has nothing to do with “legalities”. We also think we should have the right to desecrate BLM or Pride flags and crosswalks. All of it should be equally applied across the board. If you can burn the American Flag (that represents my beliefs that I hold dear) without repercussions then I have every freedom to burn your pride and BLM flags and banners and walkways without repercussions. Fair is fair.
Right on Juju.
It’s a loser in the courts and a winner at the ballot box . It’s a branding move.
Those who support releasing MS 13 members will get agitated but they only get one vote .
It strengthens his position … won’t cost him a single vote.
Winner winner chicken dinner
Good point Mr. Perhola.
Don't forget about ownership. If it's your flag, burn it if you want to, regardless of what kind of flag. If it's someone else's flag, you have no right.
If we can burn one object as an expression of "speech", we should be able to burn them all, including the Koran and the BLM flag. Sasha, it's pretty obvious that among a great many other things, Trumpism means no more double standards that penalize the Right and cater to the Left.
Trump's next EO should be for all states in the union to require a photo id to vote. Every election
No exceptions.